How Many Wipes is a Learning Experience?


We have been having a few attempts at Sar 3d,  I lost count on our most recent attempt but from 8-11.30  we were getting there slowely, Just not enough.

Wipe count total  is over 60 + now.

I’ve voiced some things I think might help, and the officers have been knocking their heads together for a way to do this.  But Its not just one thing.

 I think my brain got fried at try 25ish tonite.  I know it got fried because I died in a Tsunami. 

*mumbles to the people calling her scrub Hey! you try doing the right thing, and being hypyer attentive 24 times over 3.5 hours  only dying after the tanks and healers, and stuffing up once  and it just clipped me :P

Its been a learning curve, everyone has  had lots of practise on surviving the Tsunami and staying out of Fissures.  But our total wipe  count is climbing

Between Disconnects, lag spikes, mistakes, new people every raid, and different tactics we just aren’t getting it.  We can get to the 2nd drake, and the last 10 times we had him either almost dead, or dead,   but only had enough people alive to get into the portal for the 3rd drake once.  Its that period that all hell is going loose.

I don’t think beyond not dying in any Tsunamis ( even when wipes are called for the sake of keeping clean stats) There isn’t much more I can do differently.

We are trying again on Monday night.  We want this.  We want to be sucessful, our realm rating is suffering because we haven’t done it yet.  It’s silly that enough things don’t work to get it done.

What would I do if it were me looking at how to improve?

Graph on everysingle person when they died, and what killed them to start.

I know sheer blunt determination might work in some cases, and if we had the luxory of swapping out people who were underperforming,  then maybe we would do better. But we don’t. 

Nor do I want to give up, Its a challange to be the best you can be 25 times in a row, but its getting repetitive.

This is my brain during Sarth 3d
Run to your spot. Sheild ( to aborb SWD damage) .  SWD on way to build up one stack of shadow weaving. Make sure Tank has moved him over to avoid the tail. Cast Vampiric embrace while running.  Stop at spot. Mindflay Mindflay for the next 4 stacks of Shadow weaving.  Start Spell rotation. Watch Drake timer, and Flame wall timer –  DPS Sarth untill Drake 1 becomes targetable.  DPS Drake 1 as hard as possible while Avoiding 1st Flame wave, “Run away little girl” Avoid fissures, and stupid adds. Kill Drake 1  . Dps down all whelps, and Blazes – Kill Drake 2 ………………..   x 24

Ad lib in some spots to include.
Avoid grouping too close so you don’t get clipped/can’t see the fissure.
Don’t Dps while standing in a pack of mobs
Don’t stand next to person whos /s macro hides half your screen
Keep VE up where possible, if only to give yourself that extra healing
Move when you get hit by a fireball or the damage will get worse.
Don’t get to close to Sarths tail no matter how confusing it all gets least you get stunned.
Stay out of Drake 2 and 3’s breath while your trying to avoid being hit by massive flame beasts, and agro dumping so the little adds don’t hit you.
Don’t move too far to a safe spot one wave or you are out of range to cast or move to the next one in time.

The Dance is so much more simplier. The only thing that goes through my brain on Heigan slime is.
“Move to where the slime waves was.” That is all.

I love that its complicated. But I think I am beyond learning anything new. We just need everyone to be at their peak . Just once. One day we will get it. Maybe.

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13 Responses to “How Many Wipes is a Learning Experience?”


  1. 1 Eingelost April 5, 2009 at 4:14 pm

    My old guild was struggling at the same point you are now. I since then have moved to a guild that does 3D with “ease” but even they can take 3-5 wipes a night to get it. I’ve found that if you can get the first two down very quickly (using Lust/Heroism) that as long as no one is stupid and everyone stays alive, the rest is cake, relatively.

    IMHO, the issue may be bringing new people. Sure they want to see it, but I would stick to one group and get it done. Once you’ve seen him down once or twice, you can bring in new people so they can see it and have a shot at a drake, but constantly changing the raid makeup could possibly make for very overly difficult raids. Just my two cents ^^ (I’ve seen the fight as a spriest and a tank)

  2. 2 Eingelost April 5, 2009 at 4:14 pm

    ^ Website is wrong >< No longer is Terminus Est.

  3. 3 pugnaciouspriest April 5, 2009 at 4:19 pm

    Trying to focus on this fight when sign ups are suffering isn’t fun. – is a very big catch 22 – you want enough raiders to pick a good team, or 25 people who can realiably turn up all raid nites, and nor do i want to be benched. I’m xing my fingers for a monday nite kill.

  4. 4 Avonar April 5, 2009 at 4:52 pm

    Maybe some tips that you already know about, but if I don’t say them at all…
    – Is someone calling out the firewall position (middle, edge) on Vent?
    – Are the ranged dps standing between the firewall positions and therefore have a shorter distance to run?
    – If you’re not getting into trouble with the enrage timer, no DPS on Sarth until after all drakes are down?
    – Are you having trouble with people dying to the whelps?

    Think your idea of figuring out why people are dying is a very good one – the only sure way to know what’s wrong and therefore how to improve.

  5. 5 2ndNin April 5, 2009 at 8:43 pm

    The correct number of wipes per raid is 2 per phase.

    1 wipe for the tanks to get the position, movement etc correct
    1 for the raid to learn their role

    of course per phase because you can’t honestly expect people to go into a fight without knowing something about it (and thus taking the wipe to learn how practice differs from theory). More wipes if you don’t know the mechanics (like MgT release, the 2nd bosses mechanics were a little iffy (and wrong on wowwiki) and differed by healer).

    3D has bored me as a tank since the 2nd pull, there is very little to the fight given the grouping of healers + add tank, ranged and melee, portals are very easy to define, waves are only a risk from a single direction. Its a fight that seems oddly simple, yet people wipe so much on it, and I can’t explain why.

  6. 6 Larísa April 6, 2009 at 7:08 am

    I’m really not the right person to give advice and I figure every guild has to find out the strategy that works for them.

    In our case we don’t dps Sarth at all until the dragons are down. Not even before Tenebron has landed! There’s no rush in doing that, we need to focus on dragons and movements we’re about to do.

    We don’t take down the adds until much later in the fight. We had locks and fire mages putting some dot on them, but still focusing on the dragons.

    We don’t take portals until Shadron is dead. We took the first portal then, but no more portal until Vesperon is dead.

    But as stated before: everyone needs to find THEIR way of doing this.

    You seem dedicated enough, prepared to take the necessary wipes. I’m sure you’ll make it!

  7. 7 Merlot April 6, 2009 at 9:36 am

    Wow, my mind boggles at how much gold 60+ wipes is, never mind the focus it must take to keep going. I glaze over after 8-10 wipes on anything so kudos to you for staying with it.

    I assume, given that you’re so focused on 3D, that you can sleepwalk 2D? The only reason I ask is because if you’re wiping before the third landing maybe you’re guild needs to go back and get that down pat before it can progress.

  8. 8 pugnaciouspriest April 7, 2009 at 2:23 am

    @Avonar -we have tried various people calling out in vent. I suspect not everyone has a DBM. or like program. The name of the the one escapes me atm. One of my Pst’d suggestions to the Rl was to do a version check to at least people have either of them
    @2ndnin – your making me jealose :P Bored of Sarth 3d…
    @Larisa – we do get the odd person getting hit by a wave the 1st wave, but at least for the first few minutes we do well, so its not so much a matter of us not being ready for Tenebrom – we have come close a few times, just need that extra little bit..
    @merlot – Its the final frontier – the last undiscovered country. And a title. We want it bad. Its like our bug bear, and an insult that we can’t do it :( Gold means nothing! – But it is becomming a matter of bordem and time wasted. When we have 3.5 hour blocks or so of our play time dedicated to one, useless thing – priorities get called into question when we aren’t progressing siginificantly. Our Sarth 2d used to be messy. But our 2d clears are done now with only 1 or 2 dead.

    • 9 Joetest April 7, 2009 at 8:49 am

      Having 1-2 raiders die on 2d is kinda a sign that some people aren’t ‘getting it’. You obviously want NO ONE to die, as really there is very few excuses to die.

      Did you not see the indescribably massive wall of LAVA, did the ‘large glowing spinning blue colored to contrast the red ambient colors’ void zone come at you as a surprise? Did you forget dragons tails slow you, and that it may be a bad idea to be near it when a wall is coming?

      It’s consistently surprising when people forget these things, sure even the best can just have things slip their mind a few times especially after a massive amount of attempts but anyone with half a brain should be able to adapt to the situation and pop that Health stone or call out in the raid to reposition due to their slight misstep.

      • 10 Joetest April 7, 2009 at 8:50 am

        I’d like to add that my guild had nights where we attempted 3d (10man and 25man) the entire raid night, and that our raid schedule stretches from 5pm to 12pm on these types of nights, so you can imagine the amount of attempts :)

  9. 11 Eingelost April 7, 2009 at 2:59 pm

    Honestly 1-2 dying is not ideal but it’s not fail either. I’ve seen dps get dazed by an add and get stuck in a wave, or a person D/C and still have a successful 3D attempt. One thing to make sure is even if they don’t have DBM or BigWigs, whoever the raid leader is should have events announced to the Raid Warning channel. This way everyone will see them regardless of having the addon or not.


  1. 1 Owning up. « Pugnacious Priest’s Warcraft Blog Trackback on September 3, 2009 at 4:27 am
  2. 2 If you want to go places you need to die few times. « Pugnacious Priest's Warcraft Blog Trackback on March 6, 2012 at 1:29 pm
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