When I was in high school I had a Maths teacher that would use lollypop stick drawings on the board to indicate how many minutes we were going to be keep back for being naughty at recess or lunch.
1 lollypop stick – 2 lollypop stick she would draw.
“Oscar! ” She would yell at a class mate ” Do you want another lollypop stick”
I was feeling rather like being back in high school getting lollypop sticks ( or strikes in the raids case) when we were being punished for errors ( like spawning an ad – or not having food buffs or flasks) in our attempts in Yogg last night.
In my current guild we do an hourly attendance marking system – as loot requirements are that you have 75% attendance cross all hours . Losing attendance if you a repeat offender, or the threat of being subbed if your performace was that bad could be damaging to your stats.
We had to move early one time in Phase 1 , and I almost spawned an ad. But I didn’t, I had moved in time, and when my Strike for you was called, I said ” No ad was spawned” – and It didn’t but Im not sure if I will still get punished – Apparently in 3.2 you will be able to see who spawns the ads. I am pretty sure that for all our attempts I was 100% buffed and flasked, but it will be interesting to see the wreck of attendance stats for the raid last night when they get posted, and to be truthful even if I don’t get punished I will still feel sad that the efforts and rewards ( attendance) put in last night mean nothing – because you have lost it. What a waste of an evening.
However, Its really the only way to punish raiders, as adults you can’t keep us in over recess as punishment or make us write out an essay – or lines. ” I must not die in fires” You are limited in your means of punishing, so I don’t necessarily think that taking attendance or subbing someone as punishment is unfair. It comes down to how bad to you want to make the cut. If you do stupid things then your chances of making that cut are reduced. I have failed in the past, and I will probably fail again. I know when I ride the fail train, but thats my incentive to do better next time. You can not invite me to a raid, and you can punish me by loot illegibility.
The problem that a consistant negative atmosphere of punishment creates though when directed at a raid, and not an individuals is mechanical raiding – going through the motions feeling. I realised we aren’t going to Yogg to Kill him. We are going there to die.
The atmosphere, the attitudes, our feelings. We ( and I included) go down to that room to try. Not succeed. We aren’t riled up, and confident, no one says “we are going to do it this attempt “- or “WOW! it was so close last time” No happy voices of encouragement. Its all strikes , and errors. We doggedly go through the motions of running back into the instance rebuffing and clicking that ready check. When he dies it will be a feeling of relief rather then joy.
How is that fun?
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> How is that fun?
It sure doesn’t sound like fun. Sounds like a guild I would leave in an instant…
I believe more in carrots than in sticks. It’s possible that there are guilds who are happy and successful using a punishment philosophy, but honestly, it sounds absolutely awful to me. I’m pretty sure you can succeed using a more positive approach. People should be focused – yes, but if they’re on their toes out of fear of failing, I’m afraid the nervosity that comes with it will have the oppositve effect, causing them do silly mistakes just because they’re so tense.
In a guild with a good atmosphere a wipe night at Yogg can be a pleasure. But what you’re describing sounds just like a pain.
I agree to punish actions of negligence like not being buffed or AFK 10 minutes.
However punishing actions that are done because of not being skilled enough yet backfires. Instead of trying to be the best, they focus on not messing up. Spawning an add is smaller problem than having 50% casting activity since you move all the time to get miles away from clouds.
I spawned an add from a cloud. I kittie-dashed into the tank. He picked it up, and went down with the rest. Some minutes later I had a new hat and we went to Steelbraker.
I don’t know your guild. If it’s newly formed or reformed, it may need cleansing from firedancing idiots. In such periods punishments help the idiots finding the /gquit command. But these must be periods, not a normal way of life.
For me is no need to be so deadly serious in a game you play in your spare time for fun. Or maybe there is if what you enjoy is the kill and you don’t care how you get there. But there are other ways – a balance between fun-through-trying and fun-through-killing.
I always marvel at the complexities ‘serious’ raiding guilds create – bank tabs, officers, attendance, DKP. Some of the guilds do go on to hit ‘world firsts’ – something I will never do. But others seem to end up at the same place as my fun raiding guild with no officers, no DKP, and only 6 hrs of raiding a week… staring at the tentacles, making calamari jokes… or not.
Raiding guilds need to have a lot of carrot, and just enough stick to get rid of the lazy. Typically this means mostly positive reinforcement (happy raiders try harder) with some general rules and expectations. Telling people to avoid spawning adds, always have flask and food, and be on time, for example, are perfectly good ideas. And since most people agree on principle, any violations will probably clear themselves up.
The only time punishment should be used is if someone knows the rules, disagrees, and chooses to do things their way. Failing at a mechanic should not be punished as that’s a skill that people will learn faster when they’re positively reinforced, however being consistently 10 minutes late because “it’s just a game” should be. And of course, punishment shouldn’t be measured out in small doses- it should be verbal warning, written warning, gkick or loss of raiding slot.
Really, there’s only two sources of problems for raids. Can’t and won’t. One of these can be fixed with experience, training, or technique changes. The other can’t be fixed short of replacing a raider.
@ Solid – the guild is great, it just seems that they are looking at that style of punishment for errors when we are failing to do what our skill and gear levels should indicate what we are capable of, and its actually a further stressor worrying about messing up, as Gevlon & larisa said said rather then focusing on doing whats right, and not doing whats wrong.
@Larisa – I want more carrot, not coddling, or carrying through, Its a good atmosphere when we are doing well, I think sonsistant failure is getting everyone down.
@gevlon – no fire dancing idiots – but maybe its the timing – that people are in a malay about raiding, that new content is already more interesting then what is already there, they are a solid guild – maybe my perception is polluted, by that I think I am getting weary but I can’t see them smiliing as we wipe in any case.
@Ana – Im am trying to find the balance, between challange, fun, and comfort, – and there are alot more serious guilds out there, and I cannot see myself wanting it to get more serious then it already is. At the same time I feel priviledged to be able to wipe on Yogg. That its content I have seen, when so many haven’t – but I now will be thinking of calamari when I see those tenticles next. 🙂
@Euripides I like the concept of your can’t and won’t principle. We don’t have any Won’ts – and that we have over signs for what is most likely to turn into a all night wipe fest I think indicates the level of commitment that they are willing to make. – Experience is however more wiping, we don’t have a discussion as to how we failed a particular fight which I think is an important part of the carrot, it increases peoples understanding, and thus experience,
who punishes the leaders
@Horatio – they get punished too – they were very quickly reminded of the rules when one of them stuffed up. So they didnt really have a choice, but its a fair question as punishments should be equally given out
Urrghh… I wouldn’t cope in that environment.. we have one guy that likes to point out our failings… we have 9 guys that like to tell him where to shove it…
Most of the time we get it right, most of the time we are having fun… the one consistent time we aren’t having fun, is when te 9 guys forget to tell the one guy where to shove it.