Gamers or Raiders.


The weekend brought a Guild meeting on our Vent, and the possible dissolution of us as a raiding 25 man guild.

Its not that we can’t kill the content,  we are 13/14 Ulduar  4/5 TOC on our 25 ‘s  The bosses can be killed,   we are just not being immediate successful on hardmodes and they are the true progression measure.

It seems its been a long time coming – There is a division between the people who want the hardmodes , and those who don’t.

Where do I sit?  I recognise that Hardmodes are progression, and I want progression,   Clearing content in 1 or 2 nights  without challenge would get old fast.

What I don’t want is feeling like I am hitting my head against a brick wall.

Apparently to be a hardcore raider I am supposed to enjoy hitting said head against the brick wall. I disagree.   I think there is a massive difference between productive attempts and attempts for the sake of it, and I think too many attempts are Die.  Run Back, Die, Run back ect  I want more dialog with the raiders as to why we died. What we did right, what we did wrong but too much dialog increases  the chances of another dc,  another afk, another slow person running back after a buff.   Maybe we just aren’t hardcore enough.

I wrote some more points, but they came out as more handholding,  even to me,   real life doesn’t like Machiavellian approaches,  regardless of the sense he can make.  “It is better to be feared then loved”  he said in The Prince, because fear lasts longer.  However no one wants to be afraid while they are playing a game, and maybe that’s the distinction.  I am a gamer that raids.  I am not a raider that games.

More people would be interested In the hardmodes if they were easier, that’s not the point though, hard modes are the new division between hardcore and casual raiders it seems,  and the most often quoted ( mis quoted ? )  stat is that only 1% of people playing  are expected to get the hardmodes.

I said before that this was my last raiding guild.  Would I have said that if I realised that I could be this far off the next expansion without being a raiding guild? I think not.  So as soon as the first lines came out of the Gm’s mouth about that the guild could not survive in the direction it was heading,  I was on another guilds recruitment forums looking. Just looking,  because that’s the decision, flog a dying horse,  or   revive the horse, and hope it stays on its legs long enough, to get to next destination.

I am fence sitting, because If I was a dedicated raider,  I would throw it all in, and start apping elsewhere because that hardmode call needs to be greater then guild loyalty if they can’t deliver.  I’ve found a guild where I am content, but maybe I like it because I can raid and have my friendly pieces of cake too,  but one of those pieces of cake server transferred for better progression, and it looks like the raiding might disappear.  I don’t want to be in a social guild.  I am beyond that.  I want to be in a place where I can see new content and succeed at it.

Maybe  the Asshats of the serious raiding guilds are just products of that progressive drive, because that’s what you need to be come better,  become the best.  Too many people not willing to lose ‘friends’ because they won’t make hard calls.  I worried a while ago I would need to be more detached  – I thought I found a place I didn’t have to be so.

Maybe I am also  still scrub,  and that the standards of raiding fell down to my level, instead of  me getting better, and that self doubt is also bad because I potentially have been comparing my performance to mediocrity.  I am doing ok in my fishbowl,  I don’t need to look for another, or so I thought.

The likely-hood of a success should be clearer in a week or so, and an injection of some fresh recruits, and a new or at least a defined attitude with the raiders in the guild, but it seems that maybe another hard choice is coming up soon.

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8 Responses to “Gamers or Raiders.”


  1. 1 Lath August 31, 2009 at 4:27 am

    I’m not too sure how long you’ve been hitting your head against the hardmode wall. If it makes you feel better, we had major roadblocks with XT Hardmode and for the core raiders it was really upsetting having our GM say, nope we can’t do it another time.

    We also for some crazy reason had an even larger stumbling block on Hodir HM… seriously we tried that moron and so nearly had it for about 6-8 weeks. Then in this 1 raid lock out we did Hodir HM, Freya +1, Thorim HM & Yogg + 3.

    We had 2 new casters & 1 new resto druid join the raiding team, I’m not too sure if that was what made the difference or if the stars just aligned, but if you like the people you are raiding with it might be worth peservering for a while, or perhaps setting a max number of wipes per HM before moving on?

  2. 2 Silk September 1, 2009 at 2:42 am

    I wonder if a big part of the reason for this is that, RNG Champions aside, the new instance is just so easy.

    So other than the (as Gelvon puts it) the “freindly social guilds) who struggle through the current content and the uber hard-core guilds who progress through hard-modes what happens? All the guilds in the middle – the ones who are 2/3 shotting all the new bosses but can’t progress in hard-modes – are falling apart.

    I think I’ve said before that I am on your server and I’ve got a fair idea who your guild is, a quick trip around our forums shows the guilds at that level who are struggling / falling over / leaving the server.

    We’ve got serious dramas in my guild because we have no hope of doing 25 hard modes and people bitterly resent a group of us doing the 10s hard modes. I don’t want to leave guilds either (especially since I am an officer and the raid leader) but maybe there is no alternative at this point. Is the struggle to get what you want worth the effort it takes to get it? When do you accept that the guild’s goals and yours don’t meet?

    I AM sure that you don’t need to be an ass-hat to be a good raider. You just need to accept that you can be wrong, learn from your mistakes and be keen enough to keep trying.

    All the best 🙂

  3. 3 Pugnacious Priest September 1, 2009 at 6:39 am

    @Lath – Some of the head hitting has just been one or two nights attempts but due to inconsistant raider attendence / other stuff we haven’t been able to get a solid core attempting a hardmode that is too hard regularily. We one shot the rest of the bosses included Yogg last night with a bunch of new recruits, and thats more then what we have been able to achieve with out normal raiders sometimes, so there is hope, I’d rather not leave so am hoping for resurrection!
    @Silk – “Is the struggle to get what you want worth the effort it takes to get it? ” Our gm is asking themself that question now, I had thought they had decided in the meeting already the answer was no, and the overwhelming response from everyone I hope has made it clear that at least we are going anywhere quickly.. – I guess time will tell if we get over the hump – I also guess its a raiding cycle, some guilds will survive some won’t – we absorbed alot of another guilds raiders when then broke up bout 2 months ago, I would just rather not start a new. But if it looks like it will disolve I am sure I won’t be the first one jumping ship, but that it will start a chain reaction.

  4. 4 Lath September 1, 2009 at 10:42 am

    Perhaps you could try splitting for a week or 2 into 2 x 10 man groups and conquering some of the hard modes? Smaller groups generally have more success because its easier to communicate and notice who is not getting it. Even if you don’t down them all, everyone will understand the strat, how it works and feel confident with getting it done on 25 man!

    Just a suggestion, hope it all goes well and the guild doesn’t crumble!

  5. 5 Turam September 1, 2009 at 12:10 pm

    Fruitcake!

    So it’s Tuesday…

    Bear with me, first timer.

    “I think there is a massive difference between productive attempts and attempts for the sake of it, and I think too many attempts are die…”
    What more can be said? If the same people keep repeatedly making the same mistakes/underperforming, without the raider core to substitute them, what can be done? For many fights, there are only certain ways to do things until it comes down to the individual.
    Feedback is good yes, but can you as a player take that feedback and turn it into something constructive? Or will you take it personally and turn into a pixellated ball of seething rage?

    “and the most often quoted ( mis quoted ? ) stat is that only 1% of people playing are expected to get the hardmodes.”
    1% seems quite low!

    “server transferred for better progression”
    is not the complete story, there are some other factors involved which culminated, I’m willing to bet.

    “Too many people not willing to lose ‘friends’ because they won’t make hard calls. I worried a while ago I would need to be more detached – I thought I found a place I didn’t have to be so.” 😦

    /ramble

  6. 6 Turam September 1, 2009 at 12:13 pm

    “The likely-hood of a success should be clearer in a week or so, and an injection of some fresh recruits”

    And I know these fresh recruits will turn out to be friendly pieces of cake who will outperform and outdo the old because that’s life. 🙂

  7. 7 Kristine September 2, 2009 at 6:35 am

    1% for hardmodes might be a bit low, but it the difference between hardmodes and normal are rather big.

    The problem ofc with hardmodes is that they are wolfs in sheeps clothes, disguising as an encounter you know and have on farm. I really think I would prefer it if hardmodes didnt exist and Blizz just made another instance with crazy hard bosses that the majority of raiders slowly could gear/nerf their way to.

    Wiping on XT on hardmode is so much more frustrating then the first few wipes when we first tried it on normal.

    And best of luck with your guild Pugnacious. Some times all you need for success is some patience. As Lath posted: What seems impossible one week might randomly work out another, and you never know when that wonderful week will be.


  1. 1 Owning up. « Pugnacious Priest’s Warcraft Blog Trackback on September 3, 2009 at 4:07 am
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