It started when our old class leader decided that we were going to try Shadow Priests not dpsing adds in 25 man raids on particular fights, there was no list of bosses which we could stay on the boss, but fights like Beasts, and Jaxx where it was thought that it wasn’t worth us making the effort on the adds it was “Everyone on the adds. Except the Shadow Priests.” The new caster leader is following the same philosophy, I clarified this after a fight where I was just beaten by the holy priest in offspec Shadow. Looking at their targets they didn’t even try to kill the adds, or cast VE.
I have mixed feelings about this philosophy. I understand why, we don’t have the burst. On heartbreaker I am sure I was spending more time in global cool down then Dpsing just trying to throw everything on the heart. I was never top damage on it, but I worked my butt off to make sure I was never last, even though thats what was expected of me because of my class.
I’m quoting something Alex from wow.com said about Shadow priests taking so long for our damage to be ‘set up’
“The usual solution to this problem is that Shadow Priests simply pretend there are no adds, and DPS away without a care in the world on the boss or whatever. That’s called not being a team player, and that’s the play style our mechanics encourage” Shadow Priest Questions Answered Alex Ziebart
Staying on the boss, while better for our own personal Dps, and might sound good from a numbers point, however it is being given special treatment, and I don’t feel like I am being a team player. When it comes to getting down Snowbolds I feel like I should be dpsing them, because regardless of how much damage I do, I am still doing some damage, and that means the person with the Snowbold on their head is able to get back to dpsing or healing that little bit quicker.
It’s also a matter of pride. Once I had an odd search query come up that found my blog, and this person had googled ” Are shadow Priests respected” and I think the answer honestly is no. We are a poor mans Dps, and precisely the reasons why Matt Low said the following
. “However, when faced with an encounter where the DPS benchmark is insanely high, I’d have to rethink the roster. I know if I’m working on certain hard modes, there is a DPS minimum required in order to win. At that point, I would be faced with no other option to take and use whatever class is at my disposal to get the job done.” What’s up Shadow Priests – Spiritual Guidance Matt Low
If you need someone utility, you take a Shadow Priest if you have the room, if you have other classes in the raid that can cover replenishment and at least the extra 3% hit then we are not needed, and this is being felt a lot more in 10 man when higher burst is required in at least the Jaxx fight in 1o man Heroic Toc – dps not only adds, but things like Volcanos, and Portals. The lack of burst complaint is not anything new, however this special treatment is.
I don’t want special treatment, I want to be able to kick the other classes on the Dps Metres and still be doing the same things they are doing. Stuff what the theory crafting says. How are we ever going to be taken seriously as a Dps class if we need to be patted on the head and told ” There there.. your useless on the adds, you might as well stay on the boss”
Regardless of the design of the class. If it means I need to work harder so be it, How do we face other Dps classes when the mages and warlocks are arguing who got the most dps in our caster channel, and I can see on the metres I beat most of them, but because of this special treatment, and I was able to not be on the adds as often as they had to be,. I want to be able to beat the other classes on equal terms if if I fail. Classes aren’t meant to be exactly equal, so I don’t expect to be doing the exact same as them all, but I want to be able to compete with them fairly. .
Maybe I am being unrealistic in my expectations, but damn it! I am gonna try and kill adds and the boss and still rock on the metres!
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In the short term, I’d try to look at the overall picture. Does the small added DPS on adds help more than the big loss on the boss? If the boss dies 5% faster and the adds die 1% slower, is that a loss?
In the longer run, I think shadow should be more useful on adds, but until then, it’s best to be practical and do what is most useful. Try the fights two different ways, with and without shadow on adds, and see which is easier for the raid.
It would be cool if there was something like adds being immune to snares except from mind flay, so maybe you can’t kill adds as fast, but you can keep them off healers if they’re able to move a bit.
Klep: Er, I’m not sure I understand you with regard to snares, but… it sounds like you’re advocating “bring the class, not the player” when talking about adds on raid bosses. Even in a 25-man, I think needing a shadow priest (or multiples) would be more than you can expect every raid to have, which would mean that either:
1. Raids without this class suffer or
2. Snaring adds becomes unimportant, in which case you haven’t given a strong reason to have a SP anyway.
I think that it’s important to do what is best for the raid. As Klep said, if the boss dies 5% faster and you get one less wave of adds, then you’ve been more useful in doing that. The only case where that isn’t true is when adds not dying causes more DPS downtime; sure, you might be able to help get the adds down somewhat, but overall, you probably don’t gain anything on the boss due to your limited contribution there.
Comparing on the meters is fun, but you have to take into account everything that goes around it. Considerations for what is going to be the best for the group are important — and I think that having a shadow priest stay on the boss is likely going to be the best for the group, even if it ‘feels’ wrong.
I participated in one of our guild’s first Heroic Beasts kills last week as shadow DPS. I took the middle ground of DPS on adds.
As I understand it, Shadow DPS needs to be maximized based on the GCD: Given a single GCD (or 2x, for Mind Flay purposes), what is the thing you can do to cause the most damage?
The math clearly supports full-duration DoTs as the most advantageous use of a GCD. Following that is a Mind Blast, then semi-duration DoTs. A half MF and SW:D are roughly equal in terms of DPGCD, which is why MF is used as filler if you have more than one GCD available before you need to do anything else and SW:D is used as filler when you have only a single GCD that needs fill.
Thus, on fights with adds, the first thing I try to do is stick DoTs on any targets who will survive a full duration DoT. Then I’ll MB a target. Since the MB does equal damage/utility to any target (as long as the target has VT and SW:P on it), I’ll often choose to MB the “priority” target, which is usually the adds. MF and SW:D go to whoever the priority target is, unless I need the MF to recharge a SW:P on a non-priority target, so usually my MFs rotate between targets.
Thus, on Gormakk, all DoTs on the boss, VT > SW:P on an add when it comes up, MB on the adds if available, MF on rotating targets to refresh SW:P, refresh DoTs on the boss when they drop off. I find that the multi-dotting actually increases DPS (since DoTs are more DPGCD than more MFs to a single target), I get to apply not-insignificant DPS to help take down adds, and I still keep steady damage on the boss.
The style often turns into a targeting clusterfuck, and if the 3.3 changes go live, it’ll get even worse, but when you get it right it really makes an impact.
It’s funny that GM’s still think of us as a utility class even after Blizz took that away from us with the “bring the player” ideology. Blizz tries to justify it by saying we’re limited because we are a “hybrid” class. I say phooey on that. Look at the druid. It’s godly as a hybrid. Spriests have been a troubled class as long as I have played one. When I raid as one I always feel kind of like that wierd uncle at the family picnic who no one is quite sure what to do with us. I agree, give us a purpose!
I have started to look into a focus macro to help with 2 target dps. My problem is more of retraining myself to new keybindings to use it correctly. My dps suffers so much because I am slow at changing targets (back and fourth) and tracking dots on both. I think a solid set of focus macros would help.
Stupid question but I am going to ask anyway. If you switch from boss to adds, when returning to the boss how long does it take a competent SP to get back up to full DPS (on the boss). I guess what I am asking is switching to adds beneficial or are you actually losing effectiveness by switching?
@Cosmo – It depends on how ‘focused’ on the adds we become, time off the boss means dots can fall off. The only one we can auto refresh which I try and do is Shadow Word pain, and I can do that by doing a cliped mindflay on the boss, which keeps that dot on it longer, however, VT and DP falls off, Dp is instant, so if I am still on adds I can throw up a Dp easily, but Vt has a cast time, so it becomes a trade off on how much time is not spent on getting adds down just to maintain minimun dots on boss.
If all dots fall off, your looking at the Global cool down of two instants plus the cast time of VT before we can even seriously get back into a pattern, and then waiting on the ticks of each of the dots to start ticking.
One of the jobs of a raid leader is to play to their raid’s strengths, especially when you don’t stack your raids for the fight. You wouldn’t put a paladin on raid heals when you have druids and shaman coming out of your ears, so why would you put shadow priests on short-lived ads if you have enough melee to deal with them? It depends on the fight of course. We are close to best choice for adds in some circumstances, and the flat out worst in others. As long as you are performing your best, I don’t think you’re letting anyone down.